Custom Electronics Packaging: Design, Cost, and Process

Custom electronics packaging is one of those things people ignore until a $120 device arrives cracked, scratched, or rattling around in a box like spare change in a glove compartment. I’ve watched that exact mistake turn into a $14,000 return mess for a client who thought a standard mailer with a logo would do the trick. It won’t. Good custom electronics packaging protects the product, makes the brand feel credible, and saves money in ways that are much less glamorous than an Instagram unboxing video but far more useful.

I’m Sarah Chen, and I’ve spent 12 years in custom printing and packaging. I’ve walked factory floors in Shenzhen where operators were stacking inserts by hand at 11 p.m., and I’ve sat across from procurement teams in Guangzhou arguing about a $0.06 difference in board stock like it was a hostage negotiation. That’s packaging for electronics. Tiny decisions. Real money. Real damage if you get it wrong. I’ve also seen a 5,000-piece order in Dongguan save a brand $3,800 just by switching from a rigid shell with a loose cavity to a die-cut insert that actually held the device in place.

If you’re selling headphones, smart home devices, charging docks, wearables, accessories, or even internal components, custom electronics packaging is not just a box. It’s a system. It has to hold, protect, present, and survive freight from Shenzhen to Los Angeles or from Shenzhen to Hamburg. And if you do it right, it does all four without making your margin cry. At 5,000 pieces, the difference between “looks nice” and “works in transit” can be as small as $0.18 per unit. That adds up fast.

What Custom Electronics Packaging Actually Is

Custom electronics packaging is purpose-built packaging designed around a specific device, accessory set, or component layout. Not a generic carton with a logo slapped on top. That’s lazy branding, and customers can tell. Real custom electronics packaging starts with the product’s exact dimensions, weight, fragility, and shipping path. A tabletop speaker, a smart thermostat, and a set of wireless earbuds all need different structures, different inserts, and different closure methods. A 74 mm earbud case doesn’t need the same cavity depth as a 320 mm docking station, and pretending otherwise is how products arrive in pieces.

There’s also a big difference between retail packaging, shipping cartons, internal inserts, and protective transit packaging. Retail-ready packaging is what the customer sees on a shelf or in an unboxing video. Shipping cartons are the outside layer that survives the carrier. Inserts keep the product from sliding, bouncing, or rubbing against hard surfaces. Protective transit packaging is the part most brands forget until they start processing replacements. I’ve seen brands spend $2.80 on a beautiful printed box and then save 11 cents by deleting the insert. That’s usually followed by a sad email about dented devices and a warehouse manager in Ohio asking why every fourth unit has corner crush.

One factory visit in Shenzhen still sticks with me. A client insisted their device “didn’t need much” because it was only 1.2 pounds. We dropped the sample from 30 inches onto plywood, and the corner of the metal housing nicked immediately. The cost to replace that part was $18.40. The insert upgrade that would have prevented it was $0.22 at 5,000 pieces. That’s the kind of math people skip when they think custom electronics packaging is mostly about looks.

Here’s the simple version: custom electronics packaging should protect the device, hold accessories in place, support brand presentation, and fit the shipping method. If it only does one of those, it’s incomplete. If it does all four, you’ve got packaging that earns its keep. A 350gsm C1S artboard sleeve with a molded pulp tray can do that job better than a fancy box with no structure at all.

“We thought we were buying a box. Turns out we were buying fewer returns.” That came from a client after their first quarter of using proper custom electronics packaging, and honestly, they weren’t wrong. Their return rate dropped from 4.7% to 1.9% in 90 days, which is the kind of number finance people suddenly understand.

For brands building product packaging around electronics, the goal is not to make everything fancy. The goal is to make the product arrive intact, then make the unboxing feel deliberate. That’s package branding with a purpose, not decoration for decoration’s sake. A clean fold, a precise cavity, and a well-placed accessory pocket can do more for perceived value than a gold foil logo nobody remembers three minutes later.

How Custom Electronics Packaging Works

Custom electronics packaging usually comes together as a layered structure. You’ve got the outer box, the internal insert, the product cavity, accessory placement, and the closure method. That sounds simple until you have a device with a charger, user manual, cable, warranty card, and one oddly shaped magnetic accessory that refuses to sit still. Then the fun starts. And by fun, I mean “why is this one cable adding two hours to the pack-out conversation?” At 8,000 units, that one cable can cost you another $600 in assembly time if the cavity is wrong.

The outer box is your first line of presentation and protection. For premium custom electronics packaging, brands often choose rigid board because it feels sturdy and opens nicely. For shipment-heavy programs, corrugated is usually the smarter choice because it handles impact better and costs less. E-flute is common for smaller electronics because it gives a clean print surface while staying slimmer than heavier corrugated grades. For lower-cost retail or mailer-style packaging, paperboard can work, but only if the product is light and the insert does real protection work. I’ve specified 350gsm C1S artboard for inner sleeves and 1.5 mm greyboard for premium rigid builds in Shanghai and Ningbo, and those specs hold up when the supplier actually follows them.

Internal inserts are where the engineering happens. I’ve used molded pulp for eco-focused accessory kits, die-cut cardboard for light devices, and EPE foam for products that need shock absorption. For premium custom electronics packaging, you might even combine materials: a rigid box with a molded pulp tray inside, or a corrugated shipper with paperboard sleeves and a foam cradle. It depends on weight, finish, and how much abuse the package is expected to take from warehouse to doorstep. A good insert spec might call for 2 mm EVA, 1.8 mm molded pulp, or 157gsm art paper wrapped over greyboard, depending on the device and the price target.

When I visited a converter outside Dongguan, the operator showed me five sample sets for the same Bluetooth speaker. Same box size, same artwork, different insert materials. One used 2 mm EVA foam, one used molded pulp, one used folded cardboard tabs, one used tray-and-lid corrugated, and one used a rigid shell with a fabric-lined cavity. The price difference ranged from $0.34 to $1.90 per unit at 8,000 pieces. That’s not a small swing. That’s budget-draining if you don’t know why you’re choosing one over another. At 10,000 pieces in Shenzhen, that swing can blow through an entire freight budget before you even notice.

Here’s how the structure usually comes together in custom electronics packaging:

1. Outer box for presentation and primary protection.
2. Insert or tray to hold the device snugly.
3. Product cavity shaped to prevent movement and pressure marks.
4. Accessory compartments for cables, manuals, and chargers.
5. Closure method such as tuck flap, magnetic lid, sleeve, or carton seal.

Then comes prototyping. A supplier will usually build a dieline, which is the flat template showing every fold, cut, and glue area. You review the structural sample, check fit, make revisions, and approve a printed sample before mass production. I always tell clients not to skip sample approval. A good sample catches problems that artwork files never will, like a cable cavity that’s 4 mm too shallow or a flap that pops open after the third open-close cycle. Yes, I’m still annoyed about the flap. That mistake cost one client an extra $1,150 in rework on a 6,000-piece run in Ningbo.

If you want industry standards behind the process, they exist for a reason. Drop and transit testing often references ISTA protocols, and material selection can relate to test methods from ASTM. Packaging design is not a guessing contest. It’s a sequence of choices that should be tested before you print 10,000 units. A 3-foot drop test on a 2.4-pound device is far cheaper than replacing 400 cracked units after launch.

Key Factors That Affect Custom Electronics Packaging

The biggest drivers in custom electronics packaging are product size, weight, fragility, surface finish, shipping method, and the experience you want the customer to have. A 90-gram earbud case is a different animal from a 4.8-pound desktop hub. So is a matte plastic device versus a glossy anodized aluminum one that scratches if you breathe on it wrong. If the finish marks at 3 Newtons of pressure, your insert needs to stop movement and stop rubbing. That’s not an opinion. That’s physics with a deadline.

Shock and vibration matter more than most people think. Electronics do not love being tossed around in trucks, dropped by fulfillment teams, or stacked under 18 other cartons. If your product has sensitive internal components, the packaging has to absorb force and keep the item from shifting. That can mean 2 mm foam, paper pulp, honeycomb board, or a custom folded insert. I’ve seen a $700 smart display survive a corner drop because the insert kept the weight centered. I’ve also seen a $39 device get returned in batches because the cable rubbed a ring into the faceplate during transit. Same box size. Very different outcome. Very different headache for the warehouse team, too. In one case, the fix was a $0.14 paperboard spacer in a 12,000-piece run out of Suzhou.

Branding changes the bill too. Good custom electronics packaging supports perceived value. That’s why brands use soft-touch lamination, spot UV, foil stamping, embossing, or custom printed boxes with inside printing. None of that is free. A basic four-color print on SBS board might land around $0.42 to $0.68 per unit at 5,000 pieces, while a rigid box with foil and a custom insert can move into the $1.60 to $4.20 range depending on size and finish. I’ve quoted jobs where the finish cost more than the structural board. Fancy is fine. Pointless fancy is not. A matte lamination with a 0.5 mm anti-scratch film can matter more than a gold stamp on the lid if the product ships through Amazon fulfillment in Kentucky.

For compliance and performance, there are a few things I always check in custom electronics packaging:

• ESD protection for sensitive boards, chips, or accessories.
• Drop test expectations using relevant transit standards.
• Retail shelf display if the package needs to sell itself in-store.
• Sustainability goals, especially if your buyer cares about recyclable materials.

On sustainability, I’ll be blunt: not every eco claim is useful, and some are pure marketing glitter. If your packaging needs recycled fiber or FSC-certified board, ask for proof. The FSC chain-of-custody system exists because “trust me” is not a certification. I’ve had suppliers in Shenzhen wave around green language and then quietly substitute materials when the order got tight. Always ask for the spec sheet. If they can’t show 300gsm recycled kraft or FSC-certified 1.5 mm greyboard in writing, assume the claim is decorative.

Pricing is where people get surprised. Custom electronics packaging quotes usually include more than the box. You may see charges for tooling, cutting dies, plates, structural samples, printing setup, insert molds, and freight. A local converter in Dongguan might quote $0.88/unit with a $260 setup fee. A specialist like PakFactory may bundle more of the design support into the project price. Uline is often used for off-the-shelf shipping materials and can be a useful baseline, but they are not the same as a custom converter building structural packaging around your exact device. Different model. Different outcome. Different price logic. A 5,000-piece custom project in Guangdong and a stock mailer order in Illinois are not even playing the same sport.

Here’s a simple comparison I use when clients ask why one quote looks “cheap” and another looks “absurd.” It usually isn’t absurd. It’s just honest.

Packaging Option	Typical Unit Price	Best For	Tradeoff
Off-the-shelf mailer	$0.35–$0.90	Low-fragility items	Weak brand fit, limited protection
Custom paperboard carton	$0.55–$1.40	Light electronics, retail packaging	Less impact resistance than corrugated
Corrugated custom box with insert	$0.95–$2.60	Shipping-heavy programs	Bulkier and less premium-looking
Rigid box with premium insert	$1.80–$6.50	Premium electronics, giftable products	Higher tooling and assembly cost

Custom electronics packaging is not one-size-fits-all. The right choice balances damage prevention, branding, warehouse reality, and unit economics. You can spend less and still protect well. You just can’t ignore the variables. A 2.2 kg shipment in a 32 x 24 x 10 cm corrugated box has very different needs from a 180 g accessory kit shipped in a 150 x 120 x 40 mm mailer.

Custom Electronics Packaging Process and Timeline

The production flow for custom electronics packaging usually starts with a brief, then a dieline, then sampling, then revisions, then mass production. If your supplier skips those steps, run. Or at least ask why they’re trying to shortcut the part that prevents expensive mistakes. A good project has a clean handoff from concept to factory because every stage confirms the previous one. In Shanghai, I’ve seen teams save 10 days just by approving one structural direction on day two instead of arguing about three directions for a week.

First comes the design brief. This should include device dimensions, exact weight, accessory list, packaging goal, shipping method, and target price. A project with a 7-inch tablet and one charger has a very different structure from a dual-device kit with a manual, USB-C cable, wall adapter, and warranty leaflet. In custom electronics packaging, missing one accessory can force a redesign of the tray. I’ve had clients forget about the power brick until the sample phase. That’s a fun way to add two weeks. Or three, if the supplier is feeling dramatic. On a 5,000-piece run in Foshan, that mistake pushed the ship date from June 12 to June 28.

Next is dieline creation. The supplier or packaging designer builds the flat layout with folds, scores, windows, and glue areas. Structural samples usually come next, often in plain white board or unprinted corrugate. These are for fit, not beauty. Then you approve a printed sample or proof set. If the artwork has metallic foil, matte lamination, or inside printing, expect more time. Every finish adds a step, and every step adds an opportunity for someone to misread a file name. I’ve seen “final_v7” become “final_final_v9” in a factory in Ningbo, and yes, the wrong version got printed once. Only once. That was enough.

The timeline varies, but here’s a realistic range for custom electronics packaging:

• Concept and brief review: 1–3 business days
• Dieline and initial structure: 2–5 business days
• Structural sample: 3–7 business days
• Printed sample or proof: 4–10 business days
• Revisions and final approval: 2–5 business days
• Mass production: 10–25 business days depending on complexity and quantity

Small runs move faster if the artwork is ready and the structure is simple. Large production runs take longer because printing, die cutting, insertion, and packing all scale differently. A 500-piece pilot can sometimes be finished in under two weeks if the spec is clean. A 20,000-piece rigid box program with foil stamping and molded pulp inserts can easily run 25 business days or more, especially if the supplier is sourcing specialty board or coordinating multiple vendors in Dongguan, Shenzhen, and Suzhou.

Rush fees are real. They usually show up in one of three places: expedited sampling, overtime press time, or air freight for materials. I once negotiated with a supplier in Shenzhen who wanted to charge a 15% rush premium because the client had “forgotten” the launch date. That wasn’t a surprise to me. It was a surprise to the client. Those are different problems. The supplier had already booked press time for a 12,000-unit run, so every day of delay had a price tag attached.

Testing can slow things down too, and that’s usually a good thing. If you’re doing ISTA-style transit testing, drop testing, or vibration checks, build that time into the plan. I’ve seen brands cut testing to save three days, then spend three weeks replacing damaged product. Brilliant strategy. Terrible math. A two-round test cycle in Shenzhen can save you a full air-shipment correction later.

Step-by-Step Guide to Building Custom Electronics Packaging

Step 1: Gather product specs, accessory list, shipping requirements, and brand goals. Measure the product in three dimensions, then measure it again with accessories. I mean actual caliper measurements, not “about the size of a paperback.” For custom electronics packaging, a 2 mm miss can become a loose fit, and a loose fit becomes damaged corners. Include weight, finish type, and weak points. If the product has a fragile screen or exposed ports, say so early. A 167 mm wide device needs a different cavity than a 171 mm one, even if your sales deck says they’re “basically the same.”

Step 2: Choose the Right packaging format based on protection, cost, and retail presentation. If the product ships direct-to-consumer and needs premium presentation, rigid board or a clean paperboard carton may be right. If it ships through carriers and needs higher impact resistance, corrugated with a proper insert is usually smarter. For custom electronics packaging, I almost always ask: “Does this package need to impress first, or survive first?” Sometimes the answer is both. Great. Then we build for both. In practical terms, that might mean a 1.5 mm greyboard rigid box for retail and a 32 E-flute master shipper for transit.

Step 3: Request dielines and structural samples before locking artwork. This step saves money. A lot of it. Structural samples tell you whether the product fits, whether accessories are organized correctly, and whether the closure method works without stressing the contents. I’ve seen beautiful artwork printed on a box that was structurally wrong. The box looked expensive and functioned like an amateur hour puzzle. Don’t do that. In custom electronics packaging, structure comes before decoration. If the sample isn’t right on the first build, revise it before you spend $1,200 on plates and print setup.

Step 4: Test the fit, drop performance, and overall unboxing flow. Put the real product in the sample. Shake it. Tilt it. Drop it from the height your shipping method actually creates, not some fantasy height where everything behaves politely. Check for scuffing, compression marks, and movement. Then open the package three or four times. Does the accessory tray stay in place? Does the lid close square? Does the product look intentional inside the cavity? That’s the difference between acceptable custom electronics packaging and packaging that makes the brand look careless. I’ve watched a $420 tablet survive a 36-inch drop because the insert used 2 mm EVA. I’ve also watched a $19 camera accessory fail because the cable had nowhere to go.

Step 5: Approve final proofs, confirm materials, and move into production with a clear QC checklist. Before production, confirm board thickness, print method, insert material, coating, adhesive type, and carton count per shipper. Create a QC checklist with acceptable color tolerance, cut accuracy, glue placement, and insert fit. For larger programs, I like to specify AQL inspection targets and photo approval on the first carton run. A sloppy handoff costs more than a clean checklist ever will. If you’re paying for 6,000 units out of Zhongshan, you want the first carton checked against a signed proof, not someone’s memory and a shrug.

I’ll give you a real example. A client selling smart thermostats came to me with a packaging concept that looked great but had no accessory logic. The thermostat fit. The wall plate did not. The screws were rattling loose. We redesigned the insert with a paperboard pocket for fasteners, a molded pulp cradle for the device, and a flap for the manual. The result was $0.31 more per unit, but returns dropped enough that the extra spend paid for itself in the first reorder. That’s the kind of win custom electronics packaging should deliver. On a 10,000-unit reorder, that extra $0.31 became $3,100, and the return reduction saved more than that in one quarter.

Some brands also ask whether they should use Custom Packaging Products as a starting point instead of building from scratch. Sometimes yes. If your device is close to standard dimensions, starting with a proven format can save on structural development. Then you customize the insert and artwork instead of reinventing the whole thing. That can shave 5 to 7 business days off the front end and cut sample costs by $120 to $300 depending on complexity.

Common Mistakes in Custom Electronics Packaging

The first mistake is choosing a box that looks good but protects almost nothing. I see this constantly with premium electronics brands that love rigid packaging but hate paying for inner support. A pretty shell without a proper insert is just expensive theater. Custom electronics packaging has to do more than photograph well. A box built from 1.2 mm board with no support is going to fail when it hits a sorting line in Louisville or a courier van in Manchester.

The second mistake is forgetting accessories until the last minute. Chargers, cables, manuals, adapters, SIM tools, warranty cards, and spare parts all need a home. If you ignore them during design, they’ll end up jammed into random spaces or thrown into a separate bag that looks cheap. That’s bad product packaging and worse customer experience. I’ve seen a $0.08 paperboard pocket save a $2.50 accessory from becoming a loose, rattling mess in transit.

The third mistake is overspending on finishes that don’t improve conversion or perceived value. Foil stamping, embossing, spot UV, and specialty coatings all have a place. But if your buyer is a procurement manager at a retail chain, they probably care more about carton cube, damage rate, and landed cost than your shiny logo. I’ve had brand founders insist on $0.42 worth of foil when a $0.07 print upgrade would have done the job. Vanity is expensive. On a 5,000-piece run, that extra foil could add $2,100 with zero functional gain.

The fourth mistake is forgetting freight weight, storage space, and assembly labor when calculating total packaging cost. A rigid box with a foam insert may look elegant, but if it adds 0.6 pounds per unit, shipping can get ugly fast. If the box needs hand assembly, that adds labor. If the insert is too complex, the pack-out line slows down. Custom electronics packaging lives in the real world. Not just the render file. A 15-second assembly time difference becomes 20.8 labor hours over 5,000 units. That’s not theoretical. That’s payroll.

The fifth mistake is skipping test shipments and assuming the first sample is production-ready. It rarely is. Samples are useful because they show what will fail. I once had a client approve a sample after only a visual check. The first freight run came back with crushed corners because the shipper carton needed two extra flutes. The replacement cost was more than the packaging upgrade would have been. That’s the sort of expensive lesson that should be illegal. In that case, a 32 E-flute outer shipper would have solved what a 20 E-flute box couldn’t.

A few quick avoid-this items:

• Using one insert design for three different product weights.
• Ignoring anti-static requirements for sensitive boards or chips.
• Choosing recycled materials without checking compression strength.
• Approving artwork before structural fit is confirmed.
• Forgetting that retail packaging and shipping packaging are not the same job.

None of these mistakes are mysterious. They happen because teams rush, copy old specs, or assume packaging is the last thing to think about. It’s not. In custom electronics packaging, it’s one of the things that protects your margin after the product is already built. Skip the test run, and you’ll pay for it in replacements, refunds, and very unhelpful customer emails.

Expert Tips for Better Custom Electronics Packaging

My first tip is simple: design around the damage points, not just the product silhouette. If the weak point is a screen edge, a charging port, or a glossy corner, build the cavity and insert around that vulnerability. In custom electronics packaging, the prettiest outline means very little if it ignores the parts most likely to fail. A 4 mm foam buffer around a display edge can be the difference between a perfect arrival and a warranty claim.

Second, use modular inserts if you plan to build a product family. I’ve worked on packaging programs where the main enclosure stayed the same, but accessories changed by SKU. If you design a modular insert system, later revisions cost less because you’re not starting from zero every time. That’s especially useful for brands with seasonal bundles, regional bundles, or product refreshes. A reusable base insert can cut development time by 30% on the second or third SKU.

Third, ask suppliers for material alternatives, print method comparisons, and quote breakdowns. A decent supplier can show you how a 350gsm artboard compares to 400gsm, how soft-touch lamination changes cost, and how a molded pulp insert compares with folded cardboard. When I was negotiating with a converter in Guangzhou, I asked for three versions of the same box: economy, mid-tier, and premium. The best one wasn’t the fanciest. It was the one that hit the damage target and stayed under budget by 8 cents. That’s the part the glossy render never tells you. At 5,000 units, 8 cents is $400. Not pocket change.

Fourth, confirm tooling ownership, sample charges, and minimum order quantities before approving anything. This matters more than people think. If the supplier owns the die tool and won’t release it, you’re stuck. If samples are free but only after a huge order, that’s not free. That’s a deposit in disguise. MOQ can also be the silent killer of a project. A quote for 3,000 units might be manageable. A 10,000-unit MOQ for a product still in testing can tie up cash you need somewhere else. I’ve seen a $1,200 tooling fee become the cheapest part of the project because the buyer ignored a 12,000-piece MOQ in Jiangsu.

Fifth, compare landed cost, not just unit cost. Landed cost includes the packaging price, tooling, freight, warehousing, and assembly labor. For custom electronics packaging, the unit price can look fine while the total cost quietly balloons. A package at $1.12/unit can be cheaper overall than a $0.88/unit package if it reduces damage, reduces pack-out time, and ships flatter. If the flatter design saves 0.4 cubic feet per carton, that can cut freight by hundreds of dollars per shipment.

Here’s the workflow I recommend to clients every time:

1. Measure the device and every accessory.
2. Request two structure options: one protection-first, one presentation-first.
3. Ask for a structural sample before artwork approval.
4. Test the sample with real shipping conditions.
5. Compare landed cost, not just quote price.

One more thing. If your supplier can’t explain their material choice in plain language, that’s a problem. You should hear specific answers like “1.5 mm grayboard with 157gsm art paper wrap” or “E-flute corrugated with a die-cut paperboard insert.” If all you get is “good quality,” they’re selling vibes, not packaging. I’ve heard “premium feel” used as a spec more times than I’ve heard a real board thickness. That’s not a specification. That’s a horoscope.

For brands that care about retail packaging, branded packaging, and package branding, the design should feel intentional from the first touch. The unboxing moment matters, yes. But the real value is in how custom electronics packaging reduces damage, clarifies accessory placement, and gives you a repeatable process for future SKUs. That’s the part people skip until a return report forces the issue. I’ve seen that report. It is never charming.

Honestly, I think the best custom electronics packaging is the kind nobody notices because everything just works. The product fits. The inserts hold. The freight arrives clean. The customer gets a tidy unboxing. The finance team sees fewer write-offs. Boring? Maybe. Effective? Absolutely. A well-built 5,000-piece program out of Dongguan can look boring on a spreadsheet and brilliant in a returns dashboard.

And if you’re still deciding what to order, start with a clean spec sheet, a decent dieline, and a supplier who can quote the real numbers instead of hiding behind vague language. That’s how you keep custom electronics packaging from becoming an expensive guessing game. Ask for actual board grades, actual insert materials, actual timelines, and actual freight estimates. The nonsense has a very high markup.

What should you know before ordering custom electronics packaging?

Before you place an order, make sure you understand your device dimensions, accessory list, shipping method, target budget, and damage-risk points. Those five inputs shape the entire custom electronics packaging project. If you skip them, you’ll end up paying for a prettier version of the wrong box. And yes, I have watched that happen. More than once.

FAQs

Custom electronics packaging is not glamorous, but it is one of the fastest ways to protect product quality, improve branded packaging, and cut avoidable costs. I’ve seen it save brands from damaged returns, bad reviews, and ugly margin surprises. If you treat custom electronics packaging like a real part of the product instead of an afterthought, you’ll get better retail packaging, better protection, and a much cleaner launch. That’s the whole point. Start by locking the spec, testing the structure, and approving the insert before anyone prints a single carton. Otherwise, you’re kinda just paying for a nicer problem.