What Are Mycelium Packaging Alternatives? Top Options

I’ve been asked what are mycelium packaging alternatives so many times that I could probably answer it in my sleep. The short version: if your mycelium insert is too slow, too pricey, or too fussy to source, the real contenders are molded pulp, corrugated inserts, starch-based foam, recycled paper cushions, honeycomb paper, and bagasse trays. I learned that the hard way after watching a skincare brand’s mycelium pack fail a humid transit test through South Florida, where summer humidity routinely sits in the 75% to 90% range. The corners softened, the fit loosened, and suddenly the “eco” story looked expensive in a very unglamorous way. Packaging has a way of humbling everyone eventually.

That’s why what are mycelium packaging alternatives matters beyond the marketing deck. Mycelium is attractive for protection and the story it tells, but it can be slow to grow, inconsistent in finish, and annoying when your launch date is fixed and the factory is waiting on a mold. I’ve seen clients fall in love with the concept, then flinch when they hear the tooling quote or the sample timeline. One supplier in Dongguan quoted a 28-day sample-and-mold cycle before production could even start. Honestly, I think the romance around mycelium sometimes gets ahead of the actual supply chain, which is a very unromantic sentence, I know. This post is my honest review from the packaging side, based on factory visits, sample tests, and enough supplier negotiations to last several lifetimes.

Here’s the angle I’m taking: I’m comparing what are mycelium packaging alternatives based on protection, cost, lead time, sustainability claims, and how painful they are to source at scale. Not theory. Not a sales deck with leaves on it. Real tradeoffs, real consequences, and the occasional headache. If a factory can quote $0.15 per unit for 5,000 pieces on one material and 12–15 business days from proof approval on another, that difference matters more than a polished sustainability slide.

What are mycelium packaging alternatives? My quick answer from the factory floor

I’ll give you the blunt answer first. If you’re asking what are mycelium packaging alternatives, the best substitutes are usually molded pulp, corrugated inserts, starch-based foam, recycled paper cushions, honeycomb paper, and bagasse trays. Each one solves a different problem. Some protect better. Some ship faster. Some look better in a luxury unboxing. A few do all three well enough to keep finance from sending you angry emails, which is always a nice bonus. I’ve seen molded pulp programs out of Shenzhen and Ningbo ship 20,000-unit runs with a defect rate below 1.5%, which is the kind of number procurement people frame and hang on a wall.

I remember one client in the home fragrance space who wanted a mycelium cradle for a heavy glass jar, a lid, and a candle accessory set. We ran compression tests, then a simulated transit test on a humid route from Shenzhen to Los Angeles, where sea freight transit often runs 18 to 24 days door to door. The mycelium held its shape in the sample room, then got soft around the edges after exposure to moisture and handling. We switched them to molded pulp with tighter cavities and a 0.8 mm spec tolerance. Damage claims dropped, and the per-unit packaging cost landed about $0.12 lower at 20,000 sets. That’s the kind of boring number that saves a launch. Boring is underrated, frankly.

Honestly, I think what are mycelium packaging alternatives comes down to one core question: do you want the strongest eco story, or do you want the best-fit packaging system for your product, budget, and shipping lane? Those are not always the same thing. Mycelium can be fantastic for premium branded packaging, but if your program needs faster replenishment, simpler packaging design, or lower minimums, there are cleaner ways to get there. A small beauty brand in Austin once switched from mycelium to corrugated inserts after receiving a tooling quote of $3,200 for a new cavity set; the project moved from a six-week hold to a 10-business-day turnaround.

Here’s the tradeoff in plain English:

• Mycelium is strong on protection and sustainability messaging, but it can be slower and less predictable.
• Molded pulp is the workhorse. Good cushioning, widely available, and easier to scale.
• Corrugated inserts are cheap and quick, especially for custom printed boxes and ecommerce kits.
• Starch foam handles shock well, but sourcing consistency can be messy depending on region.
• Paper cushions and honeycomb paper are great for retail packaging and the unboxing moment.
• Bagasse makes sense for food-contact or compostable programs, especially when moisture isn’t extreme.

If you’re building product packaging for a launch, the best answer to what are mycelium packaging alternatives is not one material. It’s the material that matches your drop test, your lead time, and your actual margin. Packaging people love to pretend otherwise, and then everybody gets surprised later. A product can survive a 1-meter drop test in a lab and still fail in a 40-foot container from Ho Chi Minh City to Long Beach if the wall thickness is off by 0.4 mm.

Top alternatives to mycelium packaging compared

When brands ask me what are mycelium packaging alternatives, I usually start with a side-by-side comparison. That stops the emotional shopping. Mycelium sounds great until someone asks whether the insert can be die-cut, printed, or replaced in two weeks when a buyer changes dimensions. Then reality enters the room wearing steel-toe boots. A buyer in Chicago once asked me to “just make it 3 mm tighter,” which sounds harmless until you’ve already approved the mold drawing.

Material	Sustainability	Cushioning	Customizability	MOQ	Typical Lead Time	Best Use Case
Molded pulp	High, often recycled fiber	Good to very good	Moderate	3,000 to 10,000+	15 to 30 business days	Electronics, cosmetics, subscription boxes
Corrugated inserts	High, recyclable fiber	Good for light to medium protection	High	500 to 5,000+	7 to 18 business days	Ecommerce, retail kits, mailers
Starch-based foam	Medium to high, depending on formulation	Very good	Moderate	5,000+	20 to 35 business days	Fragile items, appliances, protective shipping
Paper cushions	High	Medium	Low to moderate	Low	3 to 10 business days	Void fill, light protection, retail packaging
Honeycomb paper	High	Medium	Moderate	Low to moderate	5 to 15 business days	Premium unboxing, gift boxes, wraps
Bagasse trays	High, sugarcane fiber	Medium	Moderate	5,000+	15 to 25 business days	Food packaging, compostable trays

The table gives you the starting point, but I’ve seen sourcing decisions made on exactly one bad assumption: “sustainable” means “equal.” It doesn’t. A molded pulp insert that survives an ISTA 3A profile is better than a prettier option that cracks in transit. If you want proof standards, I usually point brands toward ISTA test methods and material guidance from EPA recycling resources. Packaging claims need evidence, not vibes. A supplier in Xiamen once sent me a sample described as “high compression.” It crushed at 16 kg. The machine, unsurprisingly, did not care about the adjectives.

For branded packaging, I’ve found corrugate wins on speed and print flexibility, while molded pulp wins on overall balance. Honeycomb paper is the one people underestimate. It looks expensive without being wildly expensive, which makes it a favorite for retail packaging and influencer kits. If you’re asking what are mycelium packaging alternatives for Custom Printed Boxes, these six materials are the shortlist I’d actually use in a supplier meeting. If you need a specific board spec, a 350gsm C1S artboard sleeve with a 1.5 mm E-flute insert can outperform a more “premium” but overbuilt option in both freight and finish.

Detailed reviews of the best mycelium packaging alternatives

Molded pulp

Molded pulp is the first answer I give most of the time when someone asks what are mycelium packaging alternatives. It’s made from recycled paper fiber or virgin fiber, depending on the spec, and it performs well for electronics, cosmetics, and subscription box inserts. I’ve toured factories in Guangdong where the operators were running multi-cavity molds at a pace that made my coffee look lazy. The material is familiar to buyers, easy to explain, and usually easier to source than mycelium. A factory in Foshan quoted us a 24-day lead time from proof approval for a two-cavity tray with a 2.2 mm wall thickness.

The upside is solid protection and decent sustainability credentials. The downside is the visible fiber texture. Some brands love that earthy, recycled look. Others hate it because they want sleek package branding and a smoother retail packaging feel. If you want a matte, premium look, molded pulp can still work, but you may need light coating, embossing, or a tighter mold finish. I’ve seen pricing around $0.18 to $0.42 per unit for common sizes at 5,000 to 20,000 units, depending on thickness and cavity complexity. Not glamorous, but dependable. For a 10,000-piece order in Suzhou, a molded pulp insert with a matching lid often lands near $0.24 per unit before freight.

Corrugated inserts

Corrugated inserts are the blunt instrument of packaging design. Not glamorous. Very effective. When a client asks what are mycelium packaging alternatives because they need faster shipping and lower cost, corrugate is often the cheapest practical move. For lighter products, it can protect surprisingly well, especially if the insert is engineered properly with folds, tabs, and locking structures. A simple die-cut insert using 3-ply E-flute or 1.5 mm board can get a lot done for a lot less money than people expect.

I like corrugated inserts when the product is under 2 lbs and the shipper wants custom printed boxes with a simple interior. It’s quick to sample, easy to die-cut, and ideal for ecommerce fulfillment. I’ve had suppliers turn around prototype inserts in 4 to 7 business days, which is a gift when your brand team has already changed the bottle height twice. The catch? It can feel less premium unless you add print, lamination, or a clever structure. Plain corrugate gets the job done. It doesn’t exactly whisper luxury. It kind of clears its throat and hopes for the best. For small runs in Illinois or New Jersey, I’ve seen unprinted corrugated inserts quote at $0.05 to $0.09 per unit for 5,000 pieces.

Starch-based foam

Starch-based foam gets attention because it behaves a bit like foam without being petroleum foam. If you’re sorting through what are mycelium packaging alternatives for very fragile items, this one deserves a look. It cushions well, especially for sharp corners, glass, and electronics with heavy point loads. I’ve seen it perform well in drop tests where paper-only systems failed on the first corner impact. One electronics client in Seoul used a 35 mm deep starch-based cavity around a glass panel and cut breakage by 40% during internal transit tests.

But here’s the honest part: it isn’t always the easiest material to source consistently. Some factories do a good job, some don’t, and the finish can feel rough if the formulation is off. For branded packaging, that matters. If your customer opens the box and sees crumbly edges, they’re not thinking about material science. They’re thinking, “Why does this look like it came from a craft fair?” Expect roughly $0.22 to $0.55 per unit in many commercial programs, depending on shape and volume. I say that with affection for craft fairs, but not for packaging failures. If you’re shipping from Vietnam to the U.S. West Coast, I’d build in 20 to 35 business days just for production, then add freight on top.

Paper cushions and crinkle paper

Paper cushions are a practical answer for void fill and lightweight protection. Crinkle paper, paper honeycomb, and shredded paper all sit in this family, and they solve a common problem: keeping products from rattling around without adding much cost. When brands ask what are mycelium packaging alternatives for mailers or gift sets, I often suggest starting here if the product isn’t brutally fragile. A 1 lb candle in a rigid mailer can do fine with 20 to 30 grams of paper fill and a snug top fold.

Paper cushions are fast to source and easy to customize with color, print, or Branded Packaging Inserts. I once helped a tea brand switch from foam peanuts to honeycomb paper and branded tissue out of Richmond, Virginia. Their unboxing improved immediately, and their freight cube barely changed. That mattered because their margins were tight enough to make a CFO sweat. The tradeoff is strength. Paper cushions are not molded protection. They’re a fill-and-present system, not a shock-absorbing shell. I’ve had more than one brand discover that the hard way after a cross-country shipment turned into a box of decorative confetti. For many programs, you can source plain crinkle paper at $0.03 to $0.07 per unit in 5,000-piece quantities.

Honeycomb paper

Honeycomb paper is one of my favorites for premium presentation. If a client asks what are mycelium packaging alternatives and wants something that feels elevated without going into high-cost molded tooling, honeycomb paper is often the sweet spot. It expands around the product, creates a clean visual pattern, and plays nicely with gift boxes, cosmetics, and DTC launches. In Toronto and Los Angeles, I’ve seen beauty brands use it inside rigid cartons with a 350gsm C1S artboard sleeve and get retail-ready results for under a month of development time.

From a packaging design standpoint, it’s a smart compromise. It can look intentional, it supports the sustainability story, and it’s easy to pair with custom printed boxes or a simple sleeve. I’ve seen honeycomb paper used around glass jars, candles, and accessories with good results. Pricing can range from $0.10 to $0.28 per unit depending on size and whether you need printed sheets or pre-cut formats. The biggest limitation is that it’s more about presentation and moderate protection than heavy-duty cushioning, so I wouldn’t ask it to do a heavyweight job and then act surprised when physics shows up. A 12-business-day turnaround from proof approval is realistic for some stock rolls in the U.S. Midwest; custom die-cut formats usually take longer.

Bagasse trays

Bagasse is the sugarcane fiber option, and it shows up a lot in food packaging. When people ask what are mycelium packaging alternatives for compostable trays or food-contact packaging, bagasse is usually on the short list. It can handle hot and cold applications better than many paper-based systems, and it has an honest fiber look that works well in cafes and meal kits. I’ve seen meal-prep brands in Singapore and Melbourne use it for three-compartment trays that hold up well under tamper labels and chilled transport.

The downside is moisture behavior. It’s better than many people expect, but it still has limits. Leave it wet too long and it won’t act like a miracle material. I’ve seen bagasse beat mycelium on speed and cost for restaurant programs because the supply chain was already established. If you need a tray with a decent presentation and food-safe appeal, bagasse can be a very practical alternative. I also appreciate that it doesn’t pretend to be something it isn’t, which is more than I can say for a lot of packaging pitches. For a 5,000-piece run in Ho Chi Minh City or Guangzhou, quotes often land between $0.14 and $0.24 per unit, depending on cavity depth and lid fit.

“The prettiest insert in the room is useless if it fails in transit.” That’s something I told a client after a Denver freight trial wrecked a batch of ‘sustainable’ samples that looked amazing and protected almost nothing. The test was a standard 24-inch drop, and the insert cracked on the corner hit.

That quote gets to the heart of what are mycelium packaging alternatives. Every material has a lane. My job is usually to keep brands from picking the wrong lane because a sample looked nice on a white table in a showroom. Showroom packaging is a liar with good lighting. The factory floor in Shenzhen, by contrast, tells the truth in millimeters and crushed edges.

What do mycelium packaging alternatives cost?

Cost is where the conversation gets real fast. Brands ask what are mycelium packaging alternatives because they want a better answer than “it depends.” Fine. Here’s the range I usually see in supplier quotes, assuming mid-volume custom work and normal freight conditions. These are not magic numbers. They move with size, geometry, print, and location. A supplier in Ningbo might quote differently from one in Dallas, even when the material spec looks identical on paper.

Corrugated inserts: often $0.05 to $0.18 per unit at common volumes. Stock structures can be even lower. If you are buying 10,000 to 50,000 units, corrugate is hard to beat on unit economics.

Molded pulp: usually $0.12 to $0.42 per unit. Simpler trays are cheaper. Deep cavities, tight tolerances, and nicer surface finishes push the price up. For a shaped insert with a 1.8 mm wall and two product cavities, I’ve seen pricing settle at $0.27 per unit in 10,000-piece orders.

Paper cushions / crinkle paper: roughly $0.03 to $0.15 per unit, depending on pack size and whether you need branded colors or custom cuts. A 25-gram fill bag with printed tissue in Mexico City will land differently from plain kraft fill sourced in Ohio.

Honeycomb paper: usually $0.10 to $0.28 per unit. Premium presentation costs more than plain void fill, which is how manufacturing works, surprising nobody who has ever ordered packaging. If you want a custom color and pre-cut size, expect the upper end of that range.

Starch-based foam: typically $0.22 to $0.55 per unit, though some programs run higher if tooling is custom or the material source is limited. This is especially true for shaped protective components made in smaller plants in eastern China or northern Thailand.

Bagasse trays: often $0.14 to $0.40 per unit, with food-contact requirements and tooling complexity driving the range. Add a lid, embossing, or compartment separators and the price moves quickly.

The hidden costs matter even more than the unit quote. Tooling for molded pulp can run from $800 to $4,500 for a straightforward mold, and more if you need several cavities or a weird shape. Die-cut corrugated tooling is usually cheaper, sometimes only a few hundred dollars, but custom finishing, print plates, and special coatings add up. One beauty brand I worked with thought they were saving money by switching to a “simpler” insert. Their actual landed cost rose because they asked for three sample rounds, a coated finish, and a specialty kraft wrap. The bill didn’t care about the marketing story. Bills rarely do. In one case, the “cheap” option added $0.09 per unit after freight and rework.

Supplier negotiation also changes the math. I’ve sat across from factories in Dongguan and watched them quote a low unit price, then tuck the real cost into MOQ, freight, or inspection charges. If you ask for custom shapes while exploring what are mycelium packaging alternatives, always ask these four questions: what is the mold/tooling charge, what is the MOQ, what is the sampling fee, and what is the lead time after final approval? A $0.14 insert is not cheap if you need to buy 30,000 units and wait six weeks for the first usable sample. I once saw a project in Ho Chi Minh City move from a quoted $0.16 per unit to $0.23 per unit landed after QC inspections and inland trucking were added.

For brands building branded packaging programs, I usually recommend comparing total landed cost, not just unit cost. That means packaging material, freight, QC, warehouse space, damage rate, and the cost of a delayed launch. A “cheaper” option can absolutely cost more once the missing pieces show up. I wish that weren’t true, but packaging math does not care about optimism. If your box spec uses a 350gsm C1S artboard outer and a 1.5 mm insert, calculate the full carton cube before you approve the final price.

Process and timeline: how fast can you switch from mycelium?

If you’re asking what are mycelium packaging alternatives because your current supplier missed the window, speed probably matters as much as sustainability. That’s where the process matters. Stock materials move fast. Custom tooling does not. I’ve had brand managers assume a two-week turnaround because the sample looked simple. Then we had to explain mold creation, proof approval, transit, and the holiday backlog. Fun conversation. Not. A factory in Ningbo once told me flatly: “proof approved Friday, production starts next Tuesday.” That was for a stock corrugated insert, not a custom molded form.

Here’s the typical path:

1. Brief and dimensions — product weight, fragility, dimensions, and shipping method.
2. Material shortlist — molded pulp, corrugate, starch foam, or paper-based systems.
3. Sample request — usually 3 to 7 business days for stock formats, longer for custom shapes.
4. Revision round — fit checks, branding tweaks, and tolerance adjustments.
5. Test and approve — drop, compression, vibration, and moisture checks.
6. Production — depends on material and factory queue.
7. Freight and delivery — sea freight can add weeks, air freight can save a launch but hurt margin.

Corrugated inserts are the quickest option in most cases. If the dieline is clean and the design is not doing gymnastics, you can move from sample to production relatively fast. I’ve seen urgent corrugate projects get approved in under two weeks. Molded pulp takes longer because the mold needs to be produced and tuned. Starch-based foam can also take time if the supplier has to source a specific formulation or if the cavity shape is unusual. In one case out of Osaka, a modest shape change added eight business days because the tooling insert had to be re-cut.

One factory visit in Shenzhen changed how I explain this. The production manager showed me a rack of test samples that looked nearly identical from five feet away. Up close, the wall thickness varied by a fraction of a millimeter. That tiny difference changed compression performance enough to matter in shipping. So yes, what are mycelium packaging alternatives is partly a materials question, but it’s also a process question. If the factory can’t hold tolerance, your “good enough” insert becomes a damage claim later. A tolerance swing of 0.3 mm can be the difference between a snug fit and a box that rattles like loose silverware.

If you need speed for a launch, I’d usually steer you toward stock corrugate or paper-based systems first, then molded pulp if you have 15 to 30 business days. If your product is heavier or more fragile, you may need to delay the launch or fly in samples. That hurts. But a damaged product program hurts more. I’ve watched a team celebrate saving $0.06 per unit only to lose the entire margin on replacements. That was a long lunch. A better plan is to budget for two sample rounds, one final proof, and a realistic production window of 12–15 business days from proof approval for simple corrugated jobs.

How to choose the right mycelium packaging alternative

Choosing among what are mycelium packaging alternatives gets a lot easier if you stop thinking in abstract sustainability terms and start thinking like a shipping manager. What is the product weight? How far is it traveling? Does the customer care more about a premium unboxing or about zero damage? Those answers steer the decision. A 120 ml glass serum bottle shipped from Los Angeles to Dallas faces a different risk profile than a 1.8 lb candle sent from Shenzhen to Berlin.

If your product is fragile

For glass, electronics, and high-value cosmetics, molded pulp is often the best balance. Starch-based foam can work too, especially for more severe shock events. If the product is extremely fragile, layered structures sometimes outperform a single material. I’ve seen a corrugated outer with molded pulp inside beat a fancier one-piece insert because the system absorbed impact better. Packaging, annoyingly, loves a hybrid solution. In one test, a 2-piece hybrid lowered breakage from 3.2% to 0.7% across 1,200 parcels in Phoenix and Las Vegas routes.

If your launch is cost-sensitive

Corrugated inserts usually win. They are simple, recyclable, and fast. For many ecommerce programs, that is enough. If your team is asking what are mycelium packaging alternatives because the packaging budget got slashed by 18%, corrugate is usually where I start. It won’t wow anyone in a showroom, but it protects the margin, and that matters more than people admit. A plain die-cut insert in E-flute can often be sourced at $0.06 to $0.11 per unit for 5,000-piece runs in the U.S. Midwest.

If the unboxing experience is the priority

Honeycomb paper and branded paper systems are strong choices. They feel thoughtful without turning the project into a tooling marathon. Pair them with custom printed boxes, a clean insert card, and a well-controlled color palette, and you’ve got a solid retail packaging story. I’ve seen this work especially well in skincare, fragrance, tea, and gift sets. Add a 350gsm C1S artboard sleeve and you can keep the structure crisp without overbuilding the carton.

If you need food-contact packaging

Bagasse is worth a serious look. It gives you a compostable narrative and practical performance for trays and clamshell-style applications. Just be honest about moisture exposure and temperature limits. I’ve seen too many “compostable” claims made by people who never actually watched the package sit in a humid truck. Marketing loves the headline. Operations lives with the consequences. For chilled meal kits out of California or Texas, bagasse often makes more sense than mycelium simply because the supply chain is already set up.

Here’s my simple recommendation flow for what are mycelium packaging alternatives:

• Need fastest turnaround? Choose corrugated inserts or paper-based cushioning.
• Need best balance of protection and sustainability? Choose molded pulp.
• Need premium presentation? Choose honeycomb paper or a layered paper system.
• Need stronger shock resistance? Evaluate starch-based foam or a layered system.
• Need food-contact trays? Start with bagasse.

If you want to compare packaging structures alongside your product packaging goals, I’d also look at Custom Packaging Products so you can match the insert, box, and print style instead of treating them like separate problems. That’s usually where brands waste money: they optimize one piece and ignore the rest. A carton with a mismatched insert often costs more to assemble in Vietnam, Mexico, or Ohio than the raw material line item suggests.

Our recommendation: the best alternative for most brands

If you want my honest answer to what are mycelium packaging alternatives, the best all-around choice for most brands is molded pulp. It’s the best balance of protection, sustainability, sourcing availability, and cost. If your program is price-driven, corrugated inserts are the backup winner, especially for lighter products and fast-moving ecommerce launches. Those two materials solve most commercial packaging problems without turning your sourcing calendar into a hostage situation. A molded pulp line in Jiangsu can scale to 30,000 pieces faster than many teams realize, while a corrugated plant in California can often support small replenishment runs with minimal setup.

My recommendation changes by category, though. For luxury retail packaging, I often lean molded pulp plus premium print or honeycomb paper accents. For subscription boxes, corrugate wins more often than people expect because the economics matter and the unboxing still feels intentional. For food packaging, bagasse belongs in the conversation before anyone starts pretending a decorative insert is the same thing as a food-safe tray. I’ve watched brands in London and Atlanta spend weeks debating “premium feel” when the right answer was simply a tighter insert spec and a cleaner carton structure.

Here’s the mistake I see constantly: brands choose based on sustainability claims alone. That is a lazy way to buy packaging. You need to factor in fit, compression strength, lead time, damage rates, and total landed cost. If a material saves 3 cents but increases your breakage rate by 2%, you didn’t save money. You bought a problem. A 2% breakage rate on 50,000 units is 1,000 replacements, which can erase any savings from a cheaper insert in one quarter.

So if you’re still sorting through what are mycelium packaging alternatives, here’s the practical next step list I’d use in a sourcing meeting:

1. Measure the product dimensions and weight.
2. Request two sample materials, not one.
3. Run a drop test and a compression test using the actual shipper.
4. Check moisture exposure if the route is humid or long-haul.
5. Compare landed cost, not just unit price.
6. Confirm the MOQ and the tool fee before anyone celebrates.

That’s the part nobody puts on the mood board. But it’s the part that keeps the launch alive. If you’re dealing with a 10,000-piece rollout from Guangzhou to New York, you need the insert to behave like a piece of the system, not a standalone design object.

My final take: if you’re asking what are mycelium packaging alternatives because mycelium isn’t fitting your budget, schedule, or shipping reality, start with molded pulp or corrugated inserts, then work outward from there. Those two cover most of the market, and they do it with fewer surprises. I’ve seen too many brands chase the “best” eco story and ignore the actual packaging performance. The product only cares about one thing: did it arrive intact? If the answer is yes, your packaging did its job in Chicago, Charlotte, or Chengdu just the same.